Challenges facing Australian governance

In this episode from our Ideas and Society program we hear from a former Prime Minister, and the most senior public servant who worked with him, as they discuss the challenges and rewards of political life and public policy.

Eight years after he was deposed as Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd speaks with Terry Moran the then-Secretary of the powerful Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet.

It is the first time both leaders publicly discuss their challenges in government, and reflect on the obstacles to bold policy reform from the complementary - but contrasting - perspectives of mandarin and politician.

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